Poetics and Poetry Discussion

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  • Rookie kenneth william snow (5/4/2005 9:59:00 AM) Post reply
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    Best to rank poets
    Than to become rank poets
    Praise before disdain

  • Rookie Michael Shepherd (5/4/2005 7:15:00 AM) Post reply

    in the spirit of fair play etc, Herbert Nehrlich, a contributor to this site, has accused me of accusing him and Allan of manipulating the stats, saing this isn't possible except by advanced computer skills. Yes or no, please? I'd hate to accuse anyone of anything that disrupted the workings of this site and its sensible discussions and polite comments, or the singularity of its personae.

  • Rookie Craig Hadden (5/4/2005 7:10:00 AM) Post reply

    Top five poets:
    e.e. cummings
    Walt Whitman
    Linda Pasten
    Rainer Maria Rilke
    Robert Creeley

    Top five song writers:
    Joni Mitchell
    Paul Simon
    Bob Dylan
    Tom Waits
    Lennon and McCartney

    Top five novelists:
    Nikos Kazantzakis
    Virginia Wolfe
    Thomas Pynchon
    Hermann Hesse
    J.D. Salinger

  • Rookie ***** ***** (5/4/2005 6:33:00 AM) Post reply

    Poets: (to name but a few..5 is too limitting)

    Pablo Neruda; Anne Sexton; Michael Hartnett; Seamus Heaney; Thomas Kinsella; Sylvia Plath; Ted Hughes; Leonard Cohen; Joseph Brodsky; Stevie Smith; Tony Harrison.

    Novels: again just a couple that come to mind now... Gabriel Garcia Marquez; Milan Kundera; Salman Rushdie; Aldous Huxley; Richard Dawkins (okay not a novelist, but a thought-provoking writer...

    I pass on the music question - have so much more to learn before ever answering that little chestnut...


  • Rookie Ulrike Gerbig (5/4/2005 5:43:00 AM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

    top five poets:
    sylvia plath
    raymond carver
    charles bukowski
    anne sexton
    margaret atwood

    top five song writers:
    bob dylan
    john lennon
    elliot smith
    nick drake
    van morrison

    top five novels/novel writers:
    'black album', hanif kureishi
    'norwegian wood', haruki murakami
    'no bones', anna burns
    'eureka street, belfast', robert McLiam Wilsom
    'Yesterday', Lars Saabye Christensen

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    • Rookie Andy Konisberg (5/4/2005 6:50:00 AM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

      favourite Nick Drake album, Ulrike (limited choice, I know) ? For me, it has to be 'Bryter Lyter'...I think it flows incredibly well. I'll return for your verdict....should you so oblige...

  • Rookie Joseph Walrath (5/4/2005 4:37:00 AM) Post reply

    Thats easy...

    we write thinking we are suffering for all these things.. they ACTUALLY ARE SUFFERING! ! ! ! !

  • Rookie Andy Konisberg (5/4/2005 2:32:00 AM) Post reply | Read 4 replies

    Robert O J suggested people post their own personal favourite to twenty poets (no order required, I suspect) ...please post in the reply section.

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    • Rookie Michael Shepherd (5/4/2005 7:06:00 AM) Post reply

      Shakespeare Rilke Li Po + other Chinese Yeats Traherne Lawrence Eliot Auden Herbert (no, George!) Donne Harrison Larkin Duffy Hardy Hughes Dahl Patten Henri Heaney McGough

    • Rookie Andy Konisberg (5/4/2005 3:01:00 AM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

      Gingsberg Goethe Ivor Cutler Bukowski Dickinson -- Phillip Larkin Ted Hughes John Clare Catullus Aphra Behn -- Baudelaire Plath Shakespeare (I prefer the poetry in the plays) Les Murra ... more

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  • Rookie ***** ***** (5/3/2005 8:47:00 PM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

    I've been thinking about smells of late... the olfactory sense is closest related to memory in the brain... anyone interested in writing about the smell that takes them back to their fondest memory? Sx p.s. as well as posting poetic responses to the main page, can people also post their responses here?

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    • Rookie Michael Shepherd (5/4/2005 4:41:00 AM) Post reply

      Sonja, I posted two about smell and they really got people going. It's said to be the most powerful sense in recalling memories. Should be a good response. Will think about it. You?

  • Rookie - 150 Points Poetry Hound (5/3/2005 11:32:00 AM) Post reply

    Judging by the comments it received, there seems to be a lot stirred up by this poem posted by Chris Higginson a little while ago. Stirred me up too. It's obviously based on a personal experience Chris had in Zimbabwe, but I thought it projected a rather arrogant colonialist attitude - that the blacks in Zimbabwe had nothing until us whites came in and now that the we've been forced out, it figures that the blacks can't manage the country on their own.

    African Development (?)

    To pick a fruit in Africa, we cut down the fruit tree
    To get some honey for the pot, we simply kill the bee
    We bite the hand that feeds us, then take away his house
    There almost isn’t anything that ‘up’ with we can’t louse

    The white man built his roads for us, we’ll mine them just for fun
    We’ll rocket down his aeroplanes, shoot survivors with a gun
    And then we’ll take the game parks, and kill the buck for meat
    We don’t believe his laws or God, and so we’ll lie and cheat

    We never had to read or write before they interloped
    They gave us jobs and clothes and cash, we took those then we groped
    For anything that seemed for free and then we asked for more
    They even gave the right to vote, but still we went to war

    So now I sit here in my kraal, my children are all dead
    Some got AIDS, some just starved and some the country fled
    And now I wonder why it was the British Government
    Said ‘Black Rule is a gift, that is from Heaven sent! ”

    Dedicated to Zimbabwe
    Where due to mis-management
    They are now slaughtering wildlife in Parks
    Because they have already killed the farmers
    And there is nothing else left to eat
    And all we can say is
    We told you so

    -Chris Higginson

  • Rookie Michael Shepherd (5/3/2005 7:38:00 AM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

    Mark, Michael's spent forty years gassing about art, he's not sure that's a good suggestion...

    But can I first mention that Robert OJ's 'QF93' is a wonderful confirmation of that Hindu theory that PoHo's been re-posting - that the creative mind first expands its parameters with paradox - here, the evocative paradox of presence in absence, and the universal in the particular. Best example of this I've seen to recall.

    We're talking about two topics recently - training + rules, and quality + reception. I reckon, if you're a good student, you listen to the rules, without accepting or rejecting, then test them.
    The best paradigm I remember if professional singing training in the belcanto
    tradition, which I underwent for two years. It is at the outset packed with the most bizarre collection of 'rules/advice' developed over centuries of practice, physical stance, mental focus to aid the 'natural' which at first seems anything but... but you're paying the earth for the lessons, you take them on trust, and test them... then one day, you can sing opera so that for instance, you can sing Madam Butterfly in such a way that people are touched to the heart by the purity of your voice, yet can follow the words and the plot with their mind...
    It's much the same with, say, the disciplines, the 'rules of the game' in sonnet writing. I adopted the 'rules of the game' because i'm so prolix. Nor do I know all of them I guess. For instance, there's a 'rule' that there should be a secondary line of thought starting at line 9, making a 'sestet' of the last 6 lines. Why? When you first try that, it is a total stymie. But the memory of that 'advice' may take you on to some principle behind that. Test the 'rule', and find whether it's alway, sometimes, never useful...and sometimes, the 'discipline' can produce the unexpected from the mind. That's the fun bit - the sonnet you never intended to write! And the unconscious mind is brighter than you or I - it can turn up a quite different rhyme for instance, that brings something quite new. Zimbabwean sculptors call this process 'listening to the spirit in the stone'...

    On the 'good and bad' bit, I take the line 'words mean what they do'. If they don't do anything for you, 'good' or 'bad' doesn't matter. If they do something for you, that's communication, which is what art is about. Generally, they touch head, or heart, or both. If I receive a Hallmark card after a bereavement, I will register its banality of wording yet be genuinely moved by the intention behind it. Or I may admire the skill of some Elizabethan word-play for its on sake - because we all love words. Then there's the matter I mentioned a propos Schneider - that poems can be 'useful' like wise men can, in their own day, yet have a limited 'shelf-life'. I wonder if this doesn't apply to all really 'new' poetry of quality.

    But I hate labelling as good and bad - while accepting that there's always room for improvement, from a complete rewrite to my spending longer on the re-punctuation than the rewrite!

    I've tried to keep off the 'modern art' parallels - I go on for ever on that.

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