Poetics and Poetry Discussion

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  • Rookie Ann Spencer (8/15/2005 6:09:00 AM) Post reply | Read 1 reply
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    Michael, re. 'Fantasia For Francis'. Thanks but you are the reader. What I meant is not at issue, rather it's what it meant to you that matters. So, if you don't mind, I would rather you did launch into a spiel about why it's 'unsuccessful'.

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  • Rookie Michael Shepherd (8/15/2005 5:47:00 AM) Post reply | Read 2 replies

    Maty, your spirited defence and justification somehow reminded me of Sinatra singing 'I did it my way'... but I think Poetry Snob - although perhaps he or she lacks Jefferson's exquisite tact - does have a point. I'd say your basic error if error it was, was in choosing a metaphoric or allegorical framework for some powerful and extended thought on Justice; so that 'straight' comment overloaded with its enthusiasm the framework. I believe that you could write a very powerful poem on Justice without the metaphorical basis, which would carry the reader better. Extended metaphor has to be kept very tightly and succinctly within itself to be effective, I would suggest. If I added 'too clever by half' as a common comment, it would be in relation to the reader's reception rather than an ad hominem jibe, which as you know we deplore in this site of opinionated poetry snobs... and I'll forgive you on grounds of assumed juvenility, of spelling my name wrong a few times. Actually, the wheel is a more powerful symbol than the wagon in some contexts such as this, since it evokes movement rather than being carried. I think it could stay in some places; 'wagon' gets into the 'machinery of state' area.
    As evidently as scorpion among scorpions, you're welcome to this cosy nest of vipers...you could take a swipe at some of our poems ho ho. I'm AJS would agree. Just don't start with his...

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    • Rookie Maty Grosman (8/15/2005 9:58:00 AM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

      Thank you, Michael, for your replay. I must admit that your remark is very interesting; I'll have to give it some thought. The biggest problem I faced was the fact that after I identified the metap ... more

    • Rookie Herbert Nehrlich1 (8/15/2005 6:13:00 AM) Post reply

      I think the only thing that could save this poem is the establishment (horror) of a smoothly flowing rhyme, something that any framework will easily carry. Obviously, it must be done by the Rhyme Po ... more

  • Rookie Allan James Saywell (8/15/2005 3:02:00 AM) Post reply

    to maty well said you certainly told that theatre actor poetry snob that your not just a pretty face i dont no wether he will understand you though
    you appear to have his measure if he said something nasty he likes you

  • Rookie Maty Grosman (8/15/2005 2:41:00 AM) Post reply

    RE: Poetry Snob

    I appreciate your attempt to be straightforward. Yet, for the time being, it is only an attempt...I thank you for introducing me to a poet, whose works I will definitely intend to explore. And I also except with a bow your remark about my spelling; that is uncalled for! I will be more careful in the future.

    As for the rest of it, I urge you to stand behind your arguments explicitly; more then just generalized adjectives such as 'ungraceful' or 'murky'.
    When you state that: 'the whole metaphorical structure does little more than over-complicate a simple idea', you must mean that you understand both the idea and the metaphorical structure. In that case, I would ask you to state both. Yet, I believe that if you do understand the idea, you wouldn't claim it to be as simple as that.

    It might not be a great piece of poetry in terms of the 'basics' you have mentioned, and of which I am (explicitly) mostly ignorant. For I am lacking the proper schoolings. Yet, I do rise to defend this poem because It is true to it's substance, of which I heavily contemplated every part.

    Technically, I was concerned with exploring the field of metaphors (which you've mentioned above) , while communicating the historical background and philosophical ideas. (The later being actually rather complicated, and thus presenting a difficulty and being responsible for the poem’s length) . In regarding the presentation, I have deliberately chosen a relatively light and obvious pace of rhyming, what I believed would help solve the problem of length by making the poem flow. (Although I did alter and break the rhyme where I wanted to emphasize) .
    The style I chose to use was also light, with which I tried (along with the chosen metaphors) to suggest the pace of telling a tale, or a legend. The tone of speech and choice of words varied between objects and subjects within the context;
    Shepherd- in a childish, almost ridicule way,
    The driver- with a note of contempt and mischief,
    The horse- with a note of pride, yet always with a sense of the flaw...
    * I just want to note that the whole poem is presented in a childish tone of a tale to make my view of the situation that I'm writing about clear, and also, because I feel that sometimes presenting a horrible thing in a light way creates the strongest imprint.

    I do not want to analyze the whole poem here for I'm sure that people in this forum have other interests on their mind(I would gladly discuss it elsewhere if someone is interested) , but it is only to show you that every part of this poem was contemplated both in substance and presentation. You may disagree with me in regard to my method of presentation, in which field you might possess much further knowledge then I do...(Although I do believe that this poem is a whole and that the presentation suites the substance) . Yet you cannot say that this poem is garbage, for although I'm quite new to the field of poetry, I'm not new to the field of art; I know to differ commercial from artistical; or a 'heap of rubbish' from value.

    I will gladly accept ideas and criticism, but as I said, not unless you support it explicitly. Otherwise your ideas are of no value to me.

    I would like to add only one last thing, which, otherwise I would believe to be self evident: If I thought my writings to be perfect, I wouldn't ask people to review them; I wanted people to review them IN ORDER to see how well and how clear did I manage to communicate them.


  • Rookie - 7 Points Max Reif (8/14/2005 3:18:00 PM) Post reply | Read 4 replies

    Well, I felt I'd done one of my best pieces of writing ever this morning with 'Berlin, November,1989'. Four hours later, no comments, one vote-2.0.
    Don't we KNOW, inside, when we've done great work? I do'nt get that it so often isn't supported.

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    • Rookie - 7 Points Richard George (8/15/2005 12:55:00 AM) Post reply

      It goes on happening to me. Bear in mind what I said: one vote isn't a critical quorum. A hundred - perhaps.

    • Rookie - 7 Points Herbert Nehrlich1 (8/14/2005 10:16:00 PM) Post reply

      Just a short mention that the poem Berlin, November,1989 deserves to be read by everyone even those who were not in the midst of it. If the facts don't impress you the ambience will. H

    • Rookie - 7 Points Max Reif (8/14/2005 3:18:00 PM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

      ps: Of course, there are hundreds of poets here, each feeling he/she is the best.

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  • Rookie Michael Shepherd (8/14/2005 3:06:00 PM) Post reply

    Rather than launch into a spiel about why it's 'unsuccessful' by my reading, a question: is this meant to be a celebration of St Francis? a wry account of the failure to do so? or a satire on the TV industry? or...?

  • Rookie Ann Spencer (8/14/2005 2:23:00 PM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

    Is this Forum where we come for criticism? If it is please can somebody comment on my poem 'Fantasia For Francis'?

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    • Rookie Max Reif (8/14/2005 3:30:00 PM) Post reply

      Dear Ann, I read your poem twice. The second time I felt I was starting to get my bearings. I think it IS a satire on Disney & co's need to romantacize everything. St. Francis' life is perhaps one o ... more

  • Rookie Poetry Snob (aka Jefferson Carter) (8/14/2005 11:33:00 AM) Post reply | Read 2 replies

    Maty, I just read your poem 'Justice.' To use Michael's tactful term, its quite unsuccessful. Its ungraceful, sounds murky, and the whole metaphorical structure does little more than over-complicate a simple idea. AND your spelling is really bad, so bad it makes it hard to even begin the poem. Dont worry about copyrighting your poems, you should worry about mastering the basics of a successful poem first. Read some good contemporary poets NOW! Id suggest someone like Billy Collins, who is graceful, deceptively simple on the surface, but complex underneath. Good luck. Snob

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    • Rookie Lamont Palmer (8/15/2005 1:12:00 AM) Post reply

      Snob, I can assure you, I am no one other than Lamont Palmer. My ego would not allow me to masquerade as someone else; not even for laughs.

    • Rookie Herbert Nehrlich1 (8/14/2005 6:19:00 PM) Post reply

      I struggled through the poem Justice (some of the spelling must have been fixed) and see a real possibility to turn this into a great poem. I think the author lost track of his thoughts somewhere in ... more

  • Rookie Michael Shepherd (8/14/2005 10:45:00 AM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

    Right, class, back to your desks and pay attention, put those snaps of your Poetry Camp away especially the one you're all sniggering over, and you can take that 'whatever' expression off your face right now, Kolb...

    Have you all read the Hartman book on Free Verse: the Prosody of? I guess you teachers have. It's not deckchair reading - I've given it two afternoons and I'm only up to page 40 of towards 200... it's the sort of book that you need to read if only to find out what someone else (of the few) has made of the territory. It's a scrupulous piece of academics, but if I tell you that Chapter 2 is entitled 'Accentualism, Isochrony, Musical Fallacy'...? There are times when Hartman, bless his little cotton intentions, seems the least appropriate person to take on the job, but hey, someone had to... and he totally disqualifies himself in my eyes/ears, since I wonder if he's ever written verse himself, or talked about what he's talking about, to an actor...nevertheless, essential reading, I'd say, if only to clear the air a bit. He does dispel some loose thinking about metered v. rhythmic v. 'free'. And the bibliography of 110 items could spiral my Amazonian forest of debt... So ipods off, you there, and take out your electronic notebooks...and no, I won't precis it for you, you lazy laid-backs...

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    • Rookie Max Reif (8/14/2005 11:48:00 AM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

      I just broke down & ordered the book last night. The library wanted &5 to process an interlibrary loan, and I could buy it for 10 without leaving home. Those chapter titles are scary, though, Michael ... more

  • Rookie Maty Grosman (8/14/2005 12:11:00 AM) Post reply | Read 2 replies

    I wouldn't like to take part in any of your personal disputes...
    My only concern is not to find my work, or bits of it, scattered around the web under different names.

    It is a general concern and not related personally to anyone (I hope it won't be..)
    As for your personal affairs, I must admit that as a new member, I find rather amusing then discouraging. But, as I said, that is none of my business.


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    • Rookie Michael Shepherd (8/14/2005 6:18:00 AM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

      Sorry, hadn't read your previous post about copyright.

    • Rookie Michael Shepherd (8/14/2005 5:46:00 AM) Post reply

      Maty matey, I don't blame you... and of course it's your business if you want to make it that... but I'm puzzled about 'scattered around the web'. Maybe I misunderstand you; but multiple tags and pe ... more

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