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Poetics and Poetry Discussion

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  • Michael Shepherd (8/10/2005 4:59:00 PM) Post reply

    Apologies - I should have said that it was known as 'found art' in the 1920s.

    Amicalement votre,

  • Michael Shepherd (8/10/2005 4:56:00 PM) Post reply

    Mon Ron,
    Maybe I'm to blame. It was a term coined around the 1920s by, chiefly, those artists with a surrealist 'eye' - but seems to have escaped the standard art reference book(s) .
    Something from nature or man-made for entirely practical purposes, which resembles an art object. You'll see the sot of thing sometimes in the photos of the living-rooms of surrealists. I guess that Duchamp's Urinal in the Armory Show of 1918 was an early influence - the urinal that had a certain sculptural beauty; the stone with a hole in, found on the beach, that resembled a Barbara Hepworth or a Henry Moore (hardly surprising since they were both stone-carvers): usually an object. These also fitted the Dada sense of scorn of 'culture'. Then later the Pop movement did a sort of somersault with this, baked bean cans lithographed etc.

    So applying this to poems that weren't planned as poems (and cheating on the line-length altered) may have been stretching the concept. Just a bit of fun, folks, to quote your elegant self... A sort of game of associations played by the, alas, over-sophisticated...and leading art-students into all sorts of areas that require minimal skill, he said through clenched teeth...

  • Michael Shepherd (8/10/2005 5:29:00 AM) Post reply

    I'd agree, Max, that the subject of spirituality in poetry (or out of it) is both worth discussing (since it helps builds a nation and preserve it) and at the same time is almost impossible to discuss coolly!

    Some philosophers even suggest that (not entirely unlike Islam) , American society has been so polarised by the pressure of fundamentalism (Christian) that the result has been to stifle all metaphysical thought. And this supported by the idea that 'multiculturalism' means no creative discussion at all of the metaphysical -'well, we all think we're right, don't we...? '

    For me, the way through to metaphysical discussion - and therefore inevitably the background to my poetry, if seldom the foreground of stated belief - has been the principle of 'non-dualism' which is to be found in medieval Western thought, Sufism, and Hinduism - and which ultimately discusses the sameness of the individual and the universal; which is surely where poets can meet coolly. Or not...

  • Max Reif (8/9/2005 9:38:00 PM) Post reply

    Hmmmm, the subject of spirituality and poetry appears to be an extremely charged one.

    I'm not sure it can be harmoniously discussed. Perhaps it's best if in this area, we let our poems speak for themselves.

    I wrote a line once, 'Let not our talk of Unity come between us.' This 'issue' isn't *precisely* reflected in that line because the talk isn't necessarily even of unity. But here too, there's a very, very thin razor's edge as each person brings his/her own experience and definitions to this discussion, with a vast range of said experience and definitions.

  • Michael Shepherd (8/9/2005 8:28:00 AM) Post reply | Read 4 replies

    Using a message of gratitude and apology to Collette in order to stir the embers of hatred once again is not a good idea. If you guys hate each others' guts, or tongues, so much, who cares? Just keep it to private messaging, OK? Airing your personal rather than poetic disagreements in public is not the point of this Forum? And no rot about their overlapping, OK?

    Replies for this message:
    • Poetry Hound (8/10/2005 12:16:00 AM) Post reply

      Yes Michael, I'm pretending to be above the fray. Any words of admonition couldn't possibly refer to me.

    • Herbert Nehrlich1 (8/9/2005 9:27:00 PM) Post reply

      Yes, the intricacies of the English language. Not for everybody... The old expression 'point well taken' is lost on some which is too bad because they miss out on those good comments. You are perfec ... more

    • Poetry Hound (8/9/2005 7:38:00 PM) Post reply

      Yes, that's telling THEM, Michael. See, by saying that, I can pretend you weren't directing your comment at me. Regards.

    • Herbert Nehrlich1 (8/9/2005 5:02:00 PM) Post reply

      That's telling THEM, Michael. Good on yo ... more

  • Poetry Snob (aka Jefferson Carter) (8/8/2005 10:48:00 PM) Post reply | Read 2 replies

    Max, what is sacred poetry? Isnt all of it sacred? P-Snob

    Replies for this message:
    • Herbert Nehrlich1 (8/9/2005 5:30:00 AM) Post reply

      No, not all. H

    • Max Reif (8/8/2005 11:52:00 PM) Post reply

      That's just the question I asked on their discussion board. Here is part of what I posted there: The difference between 'sacred poetry' and 'secular poetry'-if there really is one-is one of my ma ... more

  • Rev. Dr. A. Jacob Hassler (8/8/2005 1:22:00 PM) Post reply | Read 4 replies

    PH comrades, here's something that has perplexed me for quite some time:

    why is there such a negative stigma in this industry attached to 'self-publication'? i would think it better not to let anybody do what you can do yourself.

    Replies for this message:
    • Richard George (8/8/2005 3:24:00 PM) Post reply

      Why indeed stigma if you've been published in reputable poetry journals? They're difficult enough to get into (in the U.K. at least) . And when poetry presses like Faber and Seren only take one deb ... more

    • Michael Shepherd (8/8/2005 2:43:00 PM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

      Damn, I just posted a long reply and lost it... There are shades of self-publishing in all the arts. Theatres can be hired; shares in a theatre or film production sold; art galleries can be hired. ... more

    • Mary Nagy (8/8/2005 2:23:00 PM) Post reply

      Jake, I have no plans of trying to get any of my poems published by a 'real' publisher. On the other hand, one day I do think it would be nice to self-publish all my poems so my kids and grandkids ... more

    • Poetry Snob (aka Jefferson Carter) (8/8/2005 1:32:00 PM) Post reply

      Jake, its called vanity press. No one e ... more

  • Max Reif (8/8/2005 9:01:00 AM) Post reply

    As far as the 'music' of a poem, research shows that people have different ways of taking things in, doesn't it? I forget the name of that book, but some people are 'auditory', others visual, etc.

    I have difficulty listening to a poem's music as a first approach. Yesterday I went to my poetry group, where I often struggle to catch the metaphors and make sense of poems read aloud. A lot of times, hearing them a 2nd time helps enormously.

    But I'm often a terribly insecure listener. I want to have 'heard' something, by the time the person's finished reciting. There's no way to get it back! I'm often left with a jumble of unassembled metaphors, like a piece of IKEA furniture.

    Then there are homonyms (sp?) , words that sound alike and are spelled differently. Often a poem for me is a road that forks ambiguously many times at each word. If I feel I've heard something coherent when the reading's over, I feel thrilled, as much for that as for whatever beauty the poem itself conveys.

    Other people at the group don't seem to have that problem, or at least they don't say so. Of course, there's often a shame factor here.

    Sometimes I feel I'm like a neandethal man trying to learn poetry, the grossest, most challenged listener who's ever lived!

  • Allan James Saywell (8/7/2005 8:40:00 PM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

    line breaks dont you make them playing' grid iron'

    Replies for this message:
  • Michael Shepherd (8/7/2005 4:10:00 PM) Post reply

    Thanks but no thanks, PS. I did my number, extensively, on Nikhil on this Forum on June 10 (around page 55 now) and he didn't reply. I stand by what I said then. I don't think I could judge its 'music' as it's not written in English...but you might enjoy his heated feud with a fellow Indian poet in Nikhil's comments box... it's evident that the traditional Hindu talent for enumeration and definition, its unconstrained speaking from the heart, and its fulsome adulation ('fulsomely encyclopaedic gallimaufry of egregiously efflorescent verbosity' should I say) for the resources of the English dictionary, are, all unaware to Nikhil, to be found misused in his convolutions. Less is more, as I mentioned to him...since conversely, more is less...

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