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Poetics and Poetry Discussion

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  • Anong All (8/11/2005 5:26:00 PM) Post reply | Read 2 replies Stage

    Not like this is going to matter, but l had comment'd upon one of Herbert's poems.., the title being: For Her ..., my comment was removed, and to me that is somewhat rude. l do read a lot of the poems within this site, and l enjoy many of them. Yet l don't comment upon many, and when l do.., it's becaue the poem was deeply felt. Yet, whatever....................

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    • Collette Parniere (8/11/2005 6:37:00 PM) Post reply Stage

      ********** I did not remove it Jodilee. These disappearances are quite rare, but they happen sometimes. I am sorry. Try posting it again. Collette. **********

    • Max Reif (8/11/2005 6:26:00 PM) Post reply Stage

      Gosh. You can write to the webmaster, you'll probably get an explanation. Maybe it was some kind of mistake. Always hoping for the best, Max

  • Michael Gessner (8/11/2005 2:31:00 PM) Post reply | Read 2 replies Stage

    In response to the discussion between Lamont, Jefferson, Matthew, & others, there is 'The First Step, ' a poem of Cavafy, (also on PH; #70/88 which has never received comment or rating :)


    The young poet Evmenis
    complained one day to Theocritos:

    'I've been writing for two years now
    and I've composed only one idyll.
    It's my single completed work.
    I see, sadly, that the ladder
    of Poetry is tall, extremely tall;
    and from this first step I'm standing on now
    I'll never climb any higher.'
    Theocritos retorted: 'Words like that
    are improper, blasphemous.
    Just to be on the first step
    should make you happy and proud.
    To have reached this point is no small achievement:
    what you've done already is a wonderful thing.
    Even this first step
    is a long way above the ordinary world.
    To stand on this step
    you must be in your own right
    a member of the city of ideas.
    And it's a hard, unusual thing
    to be enrolled as a citizen of that city.
    Its councils are full of Legislators
    no charlatan can fool.
    To have reached this point is no small achievement:
    what you've done already is a wonderful thing.'

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    • Poetry Hound (8/11/2005 4:18:00 PM) Post reply Stage

      What is a poem? Oh God, I haven't consumed enough wine yet to try to venture an answer to that. But once we've tackled that one, we can move on to answer an easier question like, what is art? (and don ... more

    • Poetry Hound (8/11/2005 3:07:00 PM) Post reply Stage

      Not my cup of tea either, but OF COURSE it's a poem, prose and all.

  • Maty Grosman (8/11/2005 12:58:00 PM) Post reply Stage

    I welcome anyone who's interested to read my poem,
    Justice.(Or, The Road To Ruins...) , I'm wondering how well will it be understood...


  • Max Reif (8/11/2005 10:01:00 AM) Post reply Stage

    I read with interest the discussion of 'found poetry'-doing the framing and letting 'Chance' do the writing.

    (I feel like someone writing to a newpaper columnist, like Ms. Manners. Anyone, by the way, read MISS LONELYHEARTS? Quite a powerful little book.)

    My wife was asking me why I capitalize the first word of a line of poetry. She said that unless it's some formal, rhymed poem, it reads more easily to her to have the flow continue in lower case, and only to see first words of sentences and proper nouns capitalized.

    I had a great answer for her: I don't care which way my poems line up. Capitalizing the first word of a line is a convention. I've mostly felt the meaning will come through the convention. Her point makes sense to me, though. Furthermore, few if any old conventions in poetry are universal any more.

    It's just that I may be too lazy to go back and change the formatting on a couple hundred poems.

    Any thoughts?

    Well, any feelings, then?

    Poetic in California

  • Lamont Palmer (8/11/2005 9:45:00 AM) Post reply | Read 1 reply Stage

    Herb, I thought I'd reply to your comment here. You are right, in some respects. History bears it out; the most original and inventive poets were not always the most popular poets. But it depends on who you feel your audience is, or what voice happens to be your voice. McKuen was a wildly popular poet; was he inventive? No. Is he respected in the poetry world? No. Wallace Stevens is praised as being perhaps the best poet of the 20th century, at least here in the states. Was he inventive? Yes. Was he popular among the people? A resounding NO. Whatever one's poetic voice is, its a coincidence who its going to resonate with; you never know until you start submitting your work. The film world is the same way; 'Citizen Kane' is hailed as the best film ever made; is it as popular as the average Jerry Lewis film shot during the same period? No. Is it a greater artistic achievement than anything Lewis ever made? Yes. Are there people who prefer a Jerry Lewis film, to an Orson Welles film? Yes. Its all about personal choice.

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  • Poetry Snob (aka Jefferson Carter) (8/10/2005 9:14:00 PM) Post reply | Read 1 reply Stage

    Oh God! I just stole a dog joke (I remember seeing it but not where) and used it as the heart of my new poem about my dog! Keeping in mind PHounds, Sherries, Michaels, and Lamonts suggestions about my other poems, Ive tried to lengthen 'Thunder' and cut out the burlesque. Also I used Jefferson Carters 'Lightning' poem as a kind of model. How much of this is stealing? If Im going to be arrested by the poetry police for theft, oh, well, what the hell. Ive posted this baby! Come and get me copper! ! P-Snob

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    • Matthew Pearson (8/11/2005 8:49:00 AM) Post reply | Read 3 replies Stage

      No disrepect intended but I have read several of these forum pages and, furthermore, I have read some of the poems mentioned. Mr. Carter is an awful writer, quite frankly. Why not just copy the type o ... more

  • Michael Philips (8/10/2005 5:42:00 PM) Post reply | Read 1 reply Stage

    Michael, when you started posting your 'found poems, ' at first I thought they were little notes and things that you had found and by typing them up you made them 'poems.' But in fact I think you composed them in a style AS IF they had been found. This is actually more intriguing to me than if you had simply posted some actual text you found. This 'dishonest honesty' has roots in the art world too, for example the photographs of Jeff Wall, who sets up elaborate scenes and then photographs them as if he had chanced upon them.

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  • Michael Shepherd (8/10/2005 5:20:00 PM) Post reply | Read 1 reply Stage

    ...and if we're going further into the very approximate history of the 'found object' there was a craze in the 18th century for collecting the bizarre in what in French would have been called something like 'cabinets des curiosites'?

    In the 1950s I achieved a passing local fame for having invented a 'poetry machine' (of course it could be done much interestingly now with computing) which made random 'surreal' sentences out of a selection of words. (A format not unlike that which is used by a certain gentleman here...) That was towards the concept of 'found poetry'. Surrealist fascination with dreams is a nother related aspect of this.
    Do you get the feeling you're being over-informed? ...

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    • t. h. ashbury (8/10/2005 5:28:00 PM) Post reply Stage

      no, there is something appropriately surrealist and dada in the exposition. its all good. salut.

  • Michael Shepherd (8/10/2005 4:59:00 PM) Post reply Stage

    Apologies - I should have said that it was known as 'found art' in the 1920s.

    Amicalement votre,

  • Michael Shepherd (8/10/2005 4:56:00 PM) Post reply Stage

    Mon Ron,
    Maybe I'm to blame. It was a term coined around the 1920s by, chiefly, those artists with a surrealist 'eye' - but seems to have escaped the standard art reference book(s) .
    Something from nature or man-made for entirely practical purposes, which resembles an art object. You'll see the sot of thing sometimes in the photos of the living-rooms of surrealists. I guess that Duchamp's Urinal in the Armory Show of 1918 was an early influence - the urinal that had a certain sculptural beauty; the stone with a hole in, found on the beach, that resembled a Barbara Hepworth or a Henry Moore (hardly surprising since they were both stone-carvers): usually an object. These also fitted the Dada sense of scorn of 'culture'. Then later the Pop movement did a sort of somersault with this, baked bean cans lithographed etc.

    So applying this to poems that weren't planned as poems (and cheating on the line-length altered) may have been stretching the concept. Just a bit of fun, folks, to quote your elegant self... A sort of game of associations played by the, alas, over-sophisticated...and leading art-students into all sorts of areas that require minimal skill, he said through clenched teeth...

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