Poetics and Poetry Discussion


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  • John Kay (11/9/2005 10:09:00 AM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

    Marcy,

    Where is all this anger toward me coming from. I only once suggested to you that dropping a couple of lines would improve one of your poems, and you went ballistic. If you look at the comments on the last poem I posted, 'Keine Stimme, ' you will see that several other poets made suggestions for improvement in their comments as well as others in personal emails. I'm grateful for suggestions that help me see what I can't see myself. I don't accuse any of them of 'telling everybody how to write their poems.' I would appreciate it if you would try to put some balance into your criticism of me. I really don't think it's fair or called for.

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    • Marcy Jarvis (11/9/2005 10:16:00 AM) Post reply

      If you'd like, I can post the insane messages you wrote me, John. Accusing me of being 'uptight', for one. I will say this, it's no surprise to me that you and J.C. went to the same school. He used ... more

  • Max Reif (11/9/2005 9:59:00 AM) Post reply | Read 4 replies

    Here's the Bukowski poem I couldn't stand! I just hate the spirit of it! (I'll check out the one Lori mentioned, later) :

    POETRY READINGS

    poetry readings have to be some of the saddest
    damned things ever,
    the gathering of the clansmen and clanladies,
    week after week, month after month, year
    after year,
    getting old together,
    reading on to tiny gatherings,
    still hoping their genius will be
    discovered,
    making tapes together, discs together,
    sweating for applause
    they read basically to and for
    each other,
    they can't find a New York publisher
    or one
    within miles,
    but they read on and on
    in the poetry holes of America,
    never daunted,
    never considering the possibility that
    their talent might be
    thin, almost invisible,
    they read on and on
    before their mothers, their sisters, their husbands,
    their wives, their friends, the other poets
    and the handful of idiots who have wandered
    in
    from nowhere.

    I am ashamed for them,
    I am ashamed that they have to bolster each other,
    I am ashamed for their lisping egos,
    their lack of guts.

    if these are our creators,
    please, please give me something else:

    a drunken plumber at a bowling alley,
    a prelim boy in a four rounder,
    a jock guiding his horse through along the
    rail,
    a bartender on last call,
    a waitress pouring me a coffee,
    a drunk sleeping in a deserted doorway,
    a dog munching a dry bone,
    an elephant's fart in a circus tent,
    a 6 p.m. freeway crush,
    the mailman telling a dirty joke

    anything
    anything
    but
    these.

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    • ***** ***** (11/9/2005 2:48:00 PM) Post reply

      I can see this event so clearly in my mind... and in my life so often. He hit it spot on. I was a Bukowski convert in my late teens and was diving head first into the Beat work until I heard Ginsber ... more

    • Michael Shepherd (11/9/2005 1:26:00 PM) Post reply

      It's a not uncommon sentiment among actors and other artists, though seldom voiced: especially 'matinee audiences': the artist has put so much into the work, that he/she wants to be appreciated at tha ... more

    • Joyce Milli (11/9/2005 12:54:00 PM) Post reply

      I read this poem w/ a recognition that felt both shameful and grateful. I have felt soooo guilty for secretly thinking those same thoughts and it is refreshing that someone gave those reactions (that ... more

    • Lori Boulard (11/9/2005 10:52:00 AM) Post reply

      c'mon, Max. You mean there's not one bi ... more

  • Max Reif (11/9/2005 9:17:00 AM) Post reply | Read 3 replies

    I'll ask this in a new thread: Is there any compassion in Bukowski?

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    • Rev. Dr. A. Jacob Hassler (11/9/2005 10:10:00 AM) Post reply | Read 4 replies

      Bukowski strikes me as almost having had a journalistic approach toward poetry. he recalled and reported his observations in a manner that lacked compassion by any measurable degree. Buke seems to ... more

    • Lori Boulard (11/9/2005 9:38:00 AM) Post reply

      Max (and anyone) , check out Jane, With All My Love That Still Wasn't Enough (I think I got the title right) .

    • Lori Boulard (11/9/2005 9:36:00 AM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

      yes, towards his wife Jane who put up with him and loved him as he was. Many of his most bitter poems were written after her death. As with most poets, knowing the circumstances behind their writing ... more

  • Rev. Dr. A. Jacob Hassler (11/9/2005 7:48:00 AM) Post reply | Read 8 replies

    hoyahoy, good friends! perhaps we have already had this debate (i can't recall) , but i have wondered: What about Bukowski? truly a poet visionary? did he carry the Torch for the Beats into the next century? or was he merely a drunk charlatan hack who lucked out and published a few things? thoughts? ideas? complaints?

    i enjoy Buke more as a novelist than a poet. he had a keen way of describing events and thoughts, usually using one to convey another. and he was funny as all hell. was he a genius? perhaps not. but who can say whether or not they'll be studying his writings in universities all over the world 100 years from now?

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    • Rev. Dr. A. Jacob Hassler (11/9/2005 9:54:00 AM) Post reply

      i asked because i've been noticing more and more college-aged poets cling to Bukowski's work tighter than a Baptist to the Bible. i've read some of Buke's poems at readings and such to warm the crowd ... more

    • Lamont Palmer (11/9/2005 9:37:00 AM) Post reply

      I enjoy Bukowski on a certain level. He was a very raw and honest poet and theres something carthartic about his work, but as an artist he was lazy and wrote alot of stuff that simply wasnt quality po ... more

    • Lori Boulard (11/9/2005 9:16:00 AM) Post reply

      oh, you're talking about my MAN! ! I love him and all his obnoxiousness as well. I agree with Ulrike, and whether or not his poems will change future generations I don't know, but I'll drink to him ... more

    • Michael Shepherd (11/9/2005 8:35:00 AM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

      ... yawn... yes Jake. we did. we did. Hi ... more

    • Max Reif (11/9/2005 8:04:00 AM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

      I haven't read a lot of his stuff, but o ... more


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  • Herbert Nehrlich1 (11/9/2005 4:06:00 AM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

    A book recommendation for all women regardless of philosophy and those men who can take it, is (probably known to may) Clarissa Pinkola Estés 'Women Who Run With The Wolves'.
    It is not poetry but......
    Best
    H

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    • Max Reif (11/9/2005 8:11:00 AM) Post reply

      A-woooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! She's a good writer. She's a poet too.

  • Allan James Saywell (11/8/2005 8:47:00 PM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

    THANK GOD YOUNG PEOPLE ARE SO INNOCENT I WROTE A POEM THIS MORNING ABOUT TARTS
    A YOUNG GIRL SUPPOSEDLY FIFTEEN SAID IT WAS A GREAT POEM ABOUT TARTS AND IT
    WAS ABOUT TARTS OF COURSE WE ALL KNOW THERE ARE MANY TARTS I'M JUST GLAD THAT SHE SAW A CHILDS TART AND NOT MY TART SHE EMAILED ME AND SAID SHE LIKES MY WORK
    THEN I THOUGHT TO MYSELF OH HELL I HOPE THAT MY POEMS DONT OFFEND ANYONE BUT
    AS POETS WE HAVE TO WRITE THE TRUTH AS WE SEE IT AND YOUNG PEOPLE HAVE TO BE OUR CRITICS AND HAVE THE RIGHT TO CAST JUDGMENT

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    • ***** ********* (11/9/2005 11:43:00 AM) Post reply

      I agree, to a degree, you little orstralian tinker (that's an English accent by the way! lol) I must remember however that there are kids on this site. At my previous haunt, I was kept away from un ... more

  • ***** ********* (11/8/2005 5:24:00 PM) Post reply | Read 5 replies

    I'm told if I insult one of you guys on here, someone will whisper sweet french nothings in my ear! I'm a bit naive ya know. Was the bar steward lying to me or what?

    Hello I'm Smiling Tai

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    • Lucy Burrow (11/9/2005 7:38:00 AM) Post reply

      The only sweet nothings I ever get are....... No sugar, NO CHOCOLATE, No cakes, No sweeets, no biscuits........ Of course, I never listen! ! ! ! ; 0) Lucy

    • ***** ********* (11/9/2005 6:21:00 AM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

      Thanks guy and gals, what do you mean Michael? I am all woman mate, I just kick off like you guys tend to! because I am a tough cookie when provoked! Sherrie, how do you cope with so many poetic re ... more

    • Michael Shepherd (11/9/2005 4:58:00 AM) Post reply

      A mixture of classy poetry, shrewd personal insults, your personal measurements, and an invented persona - even a change of virtual gender - will take you far on this Forum: a line of drooling dogs fo ... more

    • Herbert Nehrlich1 (11/8/2005 8:55:00 PM) Post reply

      No more sweet words on your poems you n ... more

    • Allan James Saywell (11/8/2005 5:44:00 PM) Post reply

      WELL HELLO IT'S NICE TO HAVE A BIT OF FR ... more

  • Max Renn (11/8/2005 3:12:00 PM) Post reply | Read 4 replies

    I am a new member from Demark

    I am completely new to the site

    please don't make disturbing remarks about me.

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  • Bridgid Patrick (11/8/2005 1:52:00 PM) Post reply | Read 2 replies

    hello everybody. pls rate my poems. dont be too harsh thanks

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    • Herbert Nehrlich1 (11/8/2005 4:23:00 PM) Post reply

      Don't listen to Miranda. H

    • Michael Shepherd (11/8/2005 2:37:00 PM) Post reply

      Bridget, I think that for the moment you should be satisfied with the comments that those of your own age leave on your poems. Older poets might be unkind about bad spelling, words missed out, the ago ... more

  • Joseph Daly (11/8/2005 1:37:00 PM) Post reply | Read 9 replies

    Oh do come on people. Lyric writers and poets are not the same thing simply because they deal in words. To compare lyrics to poetry is on par with comparing a Guiness ad with a David Lynch film. They serve a different purpose. Cohen, Dylan and the semi illiterate David Gray can hardly be classed as poetical let alone poets.

    I speak from experience.

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