Rhythm and Rhyme Workshop


Workshop for poetry written in traditional forms.
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Dr. A.celestine Raj Manohar Md Dr. A.celestine Raj Manohar Md Male, 57, India (6/14/2004 3:13:00 AM)

Just to inform you all that I strongly believe that 'Old is Gold'! So is Classical Poetry! With all its Rhyme. Rhythm and Meter and other flavours, nuances and subtlities. As you are well aware, I've written enormous amount of poetry especially in Sonnet forms without undue difficulties.I've not found it to be montonous or drab. I've endeavoured to give variety of themes and body structure and end rhymes. Though the end rhymes may look repetitive, the poem as a whole just turns out to be attractive and magical! It all depends on your abilities, talents, innovativeness and dedication than the 'so-called' freedom of modern verse! ' It is my strong belief that more damage has been done to poetry in the name of making it modern and freeing it from the rules of the classical forms. I've found that classical poetry can still be written in a modified way in order to get over some of the disadvantages of rhyme and rhythm. Though I also believe in 'keeping in tune with the changes of the present world' I would still reiterate that rules should be followed as far as is possible and when there is violation, it should lead to new compositions. This is the crux of new creations- a truth I learnt in my last six years of poetic writings all on my own. Poetry is a gift of God and poets should refrain from overly diluting the art forms in the search for newer ones that serve to hold the younger generations in a trance. Classical forms are centuries old and their beauty cannot be replaced by the newer art forms that will 'come and go like the changing fashions of modern society'!
love,
Dr John Celes

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  • dissatified exmember (2/1/2005 2:06:00 PM) Post reply

    100000% agree with you

    Janice M Pickett

  • glen still (1/13/2005 8:13:00 PM) Post reply | Read 2 replies

    i could not disagree with you more, regarding just about everything you have said! Thank god that you’re not teaching this line of 'Prejudice'. There are no rules...just these own self-perceived rules by people who want to control, which they dictate to other's and use to control other's minds. And no, i was not aware of the 'enormous amount of poetry' that you have written, in 'Sonnet forms' or any other dead and dying form. I don't read that, and there are plenty of others that don't either. Please, attempt to reach the masses with an open mind, or you will die having only convinced yourself of your own deliriums.

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    • Dr. A.celestine Raj Manohar Md (1/20/2005 3:43:00 PM) Post reply

      Dear Glen Still, Although, it is my personal belief that 'old is gold', I'm equally involved in writing poetry in its many modern evolved forms as well.It is my strong belief that most of the presen ... more


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  • James Midgley (12/22/2004 12:56:00 PM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

    How absurd. If 'old is gold' then surely the very first grunts of poetry - which were undoubtedly freeverse - would be the best? Strict form promotes flaccidity and verbosity, not to mention syntactical abnormality and forced lexis for the sake of metre. All forms are new at some point - age is not an indication of refinement by any means. I would love to see someone try and recreate Eliot's dystopian, modernist wasteland in something as ridiculously unfitting as strict metre. Times and attitudes change, and so does language. Poetry must also change.

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    • Dr. A.celestine Raj Manohar Md (2/5/2005 6:40:00 PM) Post reply

      Although, I say that 'old is gold', not that one is averse to trying modern trends and innovations.The point is though poetry must and will change with the march of time, the beauty of poetry present ... more

  • Samantha Garrett (12/17/2004 6:53:00 PM) Post reply

    Some of the most noted and sought-after poets have written in other forms of poetry besides rhyme schemes. Why are they just as sought-after? What do they have that other poets do not? Explain.

  • Philippa Lane (11/20/2004 4:12:00 PM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

    I agree with all you said. Unfortunately, I have slid into writing in free verse for some years. In spite of the fact that I was brought up in a boarding school in England that taught the Classic traditional way of writing poetry. I have now decided to concentrate on 'Old is Gold'. even if it means struggling for a while...it will be worth it. Have you ever read John Betjeman's 'Summoned by Bells'?

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    • Dr. A.celestine Raj Manohar Md (12/11/2004 6:03:00 PM) Post reply

      thanks Philippa, Many years of classical Poetry is slowly being shelved unfortunately and its immense beauty forgotten! However, I'm not averse to imbibing newer and modern styles of writing poetry ... more

  • Rajaram Ramachandran (6/22/2004 3:14:00 AM) Post reply

    This is the third instalment of my views on this subject:
    If we look back on the origin of the English language, it starts from a combination of many elements Anglican, Saxon, Norman French, Scandinavian, Dutch, and the various other contributions from Latin and Celtic sources. It became, later on a composite and strong language spoken by all races of English descent besides the settlers in other countries due to the influence of Briton during their colonial regime. Many of the old words have now become archaic, which are no longer in ordinary use. On the other hand the English language adopted thousands of local words from the occupied colonies and thus it developed into a multinational language during the two or three centuries past.

    Consistent with its development as a language of the world, it transformed into different styles according to the men of each continent or country. The phonetic expression of the spoken English differs from person to person, village to village, town to town, state to state, country to country, east to west and north to south. Even so it varies among the people of England, Scotland and Ireland, the three main group of British island. So, the rhyme or rhythm theme becomes diluted to some extent in the context of the phonetic sounds of these various people around the world. Normally, when there is an expansion of any thing, it is likely to dilute itself from the original form due to omissions or commissions or deviations or pronunciation. Had the English been confined to the British Island, perhaps it would have retained its traditional orthodox classic form of poetries. Dilution has taken place because of its mammoth expansion spreading its hands in every nook and corner of the world. The tastes differ and the thoughts also differ. This was the cause for the advent of modern poems, which has become the order of the present day world. A free-lance writer feels more comfortable with this modern prose poems, as he is able to communicate his feelings, both pathos and joyous, in his own words. A message thro’ a simple poem easily reaches a common man, who is not an expert in the English language. After all it is also another medium of communication among the mass to understand the built-in feelings of the so called poets. Call it, if we may, as another form of folk songs. No doubt there is also sweetness in this type of liberalized poetic communication and it can be delivered within the boundaries of the meter, rhythm or rhyme, wherever possible. The classic poets, therefore, should be liberal minded to accommodate the freelancers for the sake of development and further expansion of the language among the larger section of the people today. Hope I will not be misunderstood for my open views and my justification for the liberalization of the rules of poetry. I only mean, it would in the long run create a healthy competition among all sections of people coming up now-a-days in the field of poetry. Ofcourse, it should not ultimately end in malapropism, for example, as I said earlier that 'Why sky is high because grandmother told a lie.' There is rhyme in this sentence, but no meaning relevent to the question asked. I am also open-minded to entertain any other better views from others in this matter.

  • Rajaram Ramachandran (6/21/2004 12:50:00 PM) Post reply | Read 3 replies

    What Dr. C.R.M.A says is o.k., but how far a lay man can follow the rules strictly according to the traditions maintained in the old classic. When the old classics were written, the English language was confined to British island, but it became later on a window language for the whole world and it has adopted many changes in the English Language, borrowing words from other countries, which the Britishers ruled world over. The thoughts and words expressed vary from country to country and the style of expression has also undergone a remarkable change from place to place.
    If there is no flexibility, but only rigidity in any form of expression, it is likely to break one day. In the storm a tall tree gets uprooted, whereas a tall grass, that bends, remains firm on the ground. Similarly, the language survives on the basis of flexibility rather than rigidity on rules. The old order changes, yielding place to new. It doesn't mean the basic rules of rhythm and rhymes should be totally sacrificed in the name of modernisation of poetry. The rhythm and rhyme beautify the poetic expression, no doubt, of what we want to say and remain firm in the minds of readers. So, I am slightly in favor of flexibility in expression as against the rigidity. Rajaram R (dt.21-6-04)

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    • Daya Surabhi (11/26/2005 8:35:00 AM) Post reply

      I was just browsing through the forum - and found this topic Rhyme and Metre. No doubt Iambic Pentametre attracts, moreover a mysterious metre - given to it all the ramblings of new findings since th ... more

    • Dr. A.celestine Raj Manohar Md (6/21/2004 11:42:00 PM) Post reply

      I agree with Poet Rajaram Ramachandran. In fact, the commonest and easiest metre would be preferably the'iambic tetra or pentametre'.This would be a convenient one to start with. But don't worry. If y ... more

    • Rajaram Ramachandran (6/21/2004 8:29:00 PM) Post reply

      Further to my comments, I wish to add here as follows: The ancient languages Sanskrit, Latin, Hebrew were said to be so rigid that they have lost their currency among the living people. May be a ha ... more

  • Dr. A.celestine Raj Manohar Md (6/15/2004 8:59:00 AM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

    There is tremendous beauty in rhythm and rhyme!

    On Writing a Poem

    I yearned to be a Poet someday;
    Enthrall the literary world someway;
    I knew to write a good Poem,
    Was not quite easy- from my mom!

    Of all the many talents I’d got;
    My one thing-my Poetic thought;
    From the Heavens like a thunder-squall,
    Master-like, I began to enthrall.

    Even my wife, she makes some fun
    Of me- Poet? I like to pun,
    With words; and under the Sun,
    I will be great and try to stun.

    The urge to be a good Poet,
    Persists to goad me on and on;
    So, now and then, I tried to write,
    And whenev’r the lines are born!

    Many a talent, I possess,
    I will also become famous;
    If my one Talent, I pursue,
    Very soon, limelight will ensue.

    Whatev’r thy aim, begin, one must;
    Swim, one day, the unchartered sea;
    Success will come to a brave heart;
    That keeps writing with immense glee.

    This stress though strange, I’ve suffer’d;
    To struggle thus, undeciphered;
    ‘Tis a worthy cause and the fame,
    Everlasting shall end the game.

    Poetry, addiction to some,
    Like cannabis, heroin, rum;
    A Poet should best deliver,
    But God is the sole Giver!

    No matter all the blunders writ,
    Despite critics calling unfit;
    One stealthily makes progress,
    In any field to bring success.

    With time, the poem gets mended!
    Hours of hard labor seem ended;
    All is so well that ends so swell!
    The Poet happily will revel.

    Not all need win laurels, acclaim,
    Man must his creator proclaim;
    God’s love of Mankind, knows no bounds;
    And haunts us tenderly, all around!

    by Dr John Celes

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    • Luigi Coppola (6/19/2004 3:08:00 AM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

      Hello John, As this is posted in workshop, I take it you want this critiqued? I hope you dont take this personally, as I'm just speaking as a reader, in respects to the poem’s effectiveness... ... more

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