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Poetics and Poetry Discussion

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  • Rookie Maty Grosman (8/11/2005 12:58:00 PM) Post reply
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    I welcome anyone who's interested to read my poem,
    Justice.(Or, The Road To Ruins...) , I'm wondering how well will it be understood...


  • Rookie - 7 Points Max Reif (8/11/2005 10:01:00 AM) Post reply

    I read with interest the discussion of 'found poetry'-doing the framing and letting 'Chance' do the writing.

    (I feel like someone writing to a newpaper columnist, like Ms. Manners. Anyone, by the way, read MISS LONELYHEARTS? Quite a powerful little book.)

    My wife was asking me why I capitalize the first word of a line of poetry. She said that unless it's some formal, rhymed poem, it reads more easily to her to have the flow continue in lower case, and only to see first words of sentences and proper nouns capitalized.

    I had a great answer for her: I don't care which way my poems line up. Capitalizing the first word of a line is a convention. I've mostly felt the meaning will come through the convention. Her point makes sense to me, though. Furthermore, few if any old conventions in poetry are universal any more.

    It's just that I may be too lazy to go back and change the formatting on a couple hundred poems.

    Any thoughts?

    Well, any feelings, then?

    Poetic in California

  • Rookie - 774 Points Lamont Palmer (8/11/2005 9:45:00 AM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

    Herb, I thought I'd reply to your comment here. You are right, in some respects. History bears it out; the most original and inventive poets were not always the most popular poets. But it depends on who you feel your audience is, or what voice happens to be your voice. McKuen was a wildly popular poet; was he inventive? No. Is he respected in the poetry world? No. Wallace Stevens is praised as being perhaps the best poet of the 20th century, at least here in the states. Was he inventive? Yes. Was he popular among the people? A resounding NO. Whatever one's poetic voice is, its a coincidence who its going to resonate with; you never know until you start submitting your work. The film world is the same way; 'Citizen Kane' is hailed as the best film ever made; is it as popular as the average Jerry Lewis film shot during the same period? No. Is it a greater artistic achievement than anything Lewis ever made? Yes. Are there people who prefer a Jerry Lewis film, to an Orson Welles film? Yes. Its all about personal choice.

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  • Rookie Poetry Snob (aka Jefferson Carter) (8/10/2005 9:14:00 PM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

    Oh God! I just stole a dog joke (I remember seeing it but not where) and used it as the heart of my new poem about my dog! Keeping in mind PHounds, Sherries, Michaels, and Lamonts suggestions about my other poems, Ive tried to lengthen 'Thunder' and cut out the burlesque. Also I used Jefferson Carters 'Lightning' poem as a kind of model. How much of this is stealing? If Im going to be arrested by the poetry police for theft, oh, well, what the hell. Ive posted this baby! Come and get me copper! ! P-Snob

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    • Rookie Matthew Pearson (8/11/2005 8:49:00 AM) Post reply | Read 3 replies

      No disrepect intended but I have read several of these forum pages and, furthermore, I have read some of the poems mentioned. Mr. Carter is an awful writer, quite frankly. Why not just copy the type o ... more

  • Rookie Michael Philips (8/10/2005 5:42:00 PM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

    Michael, when you started posting your 'found poems, ' at first I thought they were little notes and things that you had found and by typing them up you made them 'poems.' But in fact I think you composed them in a style AS IF they had been found. This is actually more intriguing to me than if you had simply posted some actual text you found. This 'dishonest honesty' has roots in the art world too, for example the photographs of Jeff Wall, who sets up elaborate scenes and then photographs them as if he had chanced upon them.

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  • Rookie Michael Shepherd (8/10/2005 5:20:00 PM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

    ...and if we're going further into the very approximate history of the 'found object' there was a craze in the 18th century for collecting the bizarre in what in French would have been called something like 'cabinets des curiosites'?

    In the 1950s I achieved a passing local fame for having invented a 'poetry machine' (of course it could be done much interestingly now with computing) which made random 'surreal' sentences out of a selection of words. (A format not unlike that which is used by a certain gentleman here...) That was towards the concept of 'found poetry'. Surrealist fascination with dreams is a nother related aspect of this.
    Do you get the feeling you're being over-informed? ...

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    • Rookie t. h. ashbury (8/10/2005 5:28:00 PM) Post reply

      no, there is something appropriately surrealist and dada in the exposition. its all good. salut.

  • Rookie Michael Shepherd (8/10/2005 4:59:00 PM) Post reply

    Apologies - I should have said that it was known as 'found art' in the 1920s.

    Amicalement votre,

  • Rookie Michael Shepherd (8/10/2005 4:56:00 PM) Post reply

    Mon Ron,
    Maybe I'm to blame. It was a term coined around the 1920s by, chiefly, those artists with a surrealist 'eye' - but seems to have escaped the standard art reference book(s) .
    Something from nature or man-made for entirely practical purposes, which resembles an art object. You'll see the sot of thing sometimes in the photos of the living-rooms of surrealists. I guess that Duchamp's Urinal in the Armory Show of 1918 was an early influence - the urinal that had a certain sculptural beauty; the stone with a hole in, found on the beach, that resembled a Barbara Hepworth or a Henry Moore (hardly surprising since they were both stone-carvers): usually an object. These also fitted the Dada sense of scorn of 'culture'. Then later the Pop movement did a sort of somersault with this, baked bean cans lithographed etc.

    So applying this to poems that weren't planned as poems (and cheating on the line-length altered) may have been stretching the concept. Just a bit of fun, folks, to quote your elegant self... A sort of game of associations played by the, alas, over-sophisticated...and leading art-students into all sorts of areas that require minimal skill, he said through clenched teeth...

  • Rookie Michael Shepherd (8/10/2005 5:29:00 AM) Post reply

    I'd agree, Max, that the subject of spirituality in poetry (or out of it) is both worth discussing (since it helps builds a nation and preserve it) and at the same time is almost impossible to discuss coolly!

    Some philosophers even suggest that (not entirely unlike Islam) , American society has been so polarised by the pressure of fundamentalism (Christian) that the result has been to stifle all metaphysical thought. And this supported by the idea that 'multiculturalism' means no creative discussion at all of the metaphysical -'well, we all think we're right, don't we...? '

    For me, the way through to metaphysical discussion - and therefore inevitably the background to my poetry, if seldom the foreground of stated belief - has been the principle of 'non-dualism' which is to be found in medieval Western thought, Sufism, and Hinduism - and which ultimately discusses the sameness of the individual and the universal; which is surely where poets can meet coolly. Or not...

  • Rookie - 7 Points Max Reif (8/9/2005 9:38:00 PM) Post reply

    Hmmmm, the subject of spirituality and poetry appears to be an extremely charged one.

    I'm not sure it can be harmoniously discussed. Perhaps it's best if in this area, we let our poems speak for themselves.

    I wrote a line once, 'Let not our talk of Unity come between us.' This 'issue' isn't *precisely* reflected in that line because the talk isn't necessarily even of unity. But here too, there's a very, very thin razor's edge as each person brings his/her own experience and definitions to this discussion, with a vast range of said experience and definitions.

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