Poetics and Poetry Discussion

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  • Collette Parniere (8/12/2005 2:42:00 AM) Post reply | Read 3 replies

    ********** Mr. Carter, as I have said many times, criticism – even harsh criticism – is fine. Disagreement with each other is fine. In fact, it is healthy. The problem is with name-calling, personal insults, and attacks on one another’s character. These are not acceptable. You and a few others may have thick skins, but judging from the complaints we receive, most people do not prefer an atmosphere poisoned by attacks and incivility. Collette. **********

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    • Collette Parniere (8/12/2005 3:09:00 AM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

      ********** Is this really so difficult to understand? Mr. Carter, please do not call Mr. Nerhlich names, including “Nerdlick, ” and Mr. Nehlich, you de-legitimized your complaint by adding in this i ... more

    • Herbert Nehrlich1 (8/12/2005 2:47:00 AM) Post reply

      Collette, a typical example is taking place while we speak. I do object to Carter calling me Nerdlick which he has just done. Childish is correct and it is obvious that stronger measures may be needed ... more

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  • Collette Parniere (8/11/2005 6:34:00 PM) Post reply | Read 3 replies

    ********** I have just removed a series of rude comments and personal insults by Herbert Nehrlich, Sherrie Gonzales-Kolb, Poetry Hound, Poetry Snob, and one or two others. This childish behavior needs to stop. You do not need to join in to every disagreement and inflame it. You do not need to have the last word. Please excercise some self control. Thank you. Collette. **********

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    • Poetry Snob (aka Jefferson Carter) (8/12/2005 2:35:00 AM) Post reply

      Collette, its not childish. Its how artists and wannabe artists with strong opinions act. Dont emasculate the forum, please! Abrasive is better than boring. Snob

    • t. h. ashbury (8/11/2005 10:19:00 PM) Post reply

      collette, there is an artistic integrity requirement that cannot sustain endless kindness. do you have any suggestions for how we might comply with your requirements and preserve any excuse for a ... more

    • Herbert Nehrlich1 (8/11/2005 9:25:00 PM) Post reply

      I noticed that a comment by a lady from Austria was removed. It was a factual critique of a poem written by J Carter. There was nothing inflammatory in it. Are we now going fully down the path of 'no ... more

  • Anong All (8/11/2005 5:26:00 PM) Post reply | Read 2 replies

    Not like this is going to matter, but l had comment'd upon one of Herbert's poems.., the title being: For Her ..., my comment was removed, and to me that is somewhat rude. l do read a lot of the poems within this site, and l enjoy many of them. Yet l don't comment upon many, and when l do.., it's becaue the poem was deeply felt. Yet, whatever....................

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    • Collette Parniere (8/11/2005 6:37:00 PM) Post reply

      ********** I did not remove it Jodilee. These disappearances are quite rare, but they happen sometimes. I am sorry. Try posting it again. Collette. **********

    • Max Reif (8/11/2005 6:26:00 PM) Post reply

      Gosh. You can write to the webmaster, you'll probably get an explanation. Maybe it was some kind of mistake. Always hoping for the best, Max

  • Rookie - 0 Points Michael Gessner (8/11/2005 2:31:00 PM) Post reply | Read 2 replies

    In response to the discussion between Lamont, Jefferson, Matthew, & others, there is 'The First Step, ' a poem of Cavafy, (also on PH; #70/88 which has never received comment or rating :)


    The young poet Evmenis
    complained one day to Theocritos:

    'I've been writing for two years now
    and I've composed only one idyll.
    It's my single completed work.
    I see, sadly, that the ladder
    of Poetry is tall, extremely tall;
    and from this first step I'm standing on now
    I'll never climb any higher.'
    Theocritos retorted: 'Words like that
    are improper, blasphemous.
    Just to be on the first step
    should make you happy and proud.
    To have reached this point is no small achievement:
    what you've done already is a wonderful thing.
    Even this first step
    is a long way above the ordinary world.
    To stand on this step
    you must be in your own right
    a member of the city of ideas.
    And it's a hard, unusual thing
    to be enrolled as a citizen of that city.
    Its councils are full of Legislators
    no charlatan can fool.
    To have reached this point is no small achievement:
    what you've done already is a wonderful thing.'

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    • Poetry Hound (8/11/2005 4:18:00 PM) Post reply

      What is a poem? Oh God, I haven't consumed enough wine yet to try to venture an answer to that. But once we've tackled that one, we can move on to answer an easier question like, what is art? (and don ... more

    • Poetry Hound (8/11/2005 3:07:00 PM) Post reply

      Not my cup of tea either, but OF COURSE it's a poem, prose and all.

  • Rookie - 0 Points Maty Grosman (8/11/2005 12:58:00 PM) Post reply

    I welcome anyone who's interested to read my poem,
    Justice.(Or, The Road To Ruins...) , I'm wondering how well will it be understood...


  • Rookie - 0 Points Max Reif (8/11/2005 10:01:00 AM) Post reply

    I read with interest the discussion of 'found poetry'-doing the framing and letting 'Chance' do the writing.

    (I feel like someone writing to a newpaper columnist, like Ms. Manners. Anyone, by the way, read MISS LONELYHEARTS? Quite a powerful little book.)

    My wife was asking me why I capitalize the first word of a line of poetry. She said that unless it's some formal, rhymed poem, it reads more easily to her to have the flow continue in lower case, and only to see first words of sentences and proper nouns capitalized.

    I had a great answer for her: I don't care which way my poems line up. Capitalizing the first word of a line is a convention. I've mostly felt the meaning will come through the convention. Her point makes sense to me, though. Furthermore, few if any old conventions in poetry are universal any more.

    It's just that I may be too lazy to go back and change the formatting on a couple hundred poems.

    Any thoughts?

    Well, any feelings, then?

    Poetic in California

  • Rookie - 759 Points Lamont Palmer (8/11/2005 9:45:00 AM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

    Herb, I thought I'd reply to your comment here. You are right, in some respects. History bears it out; the most original and inventive poets were not always the most popular poets. But it depends on who you feel your audience is, or what voice happens to be your voice. McKuen was a wildly popular poet; was he inventive? No. Is he respected in the poetry world? No. Wallace Stevens is praised as being perhaps the best poet of the 20th century, at least here in the states. Was he inventive? Yes. Was he popular among the people? A resounding NO. Whatever one's poetic voice is, its a coincidence who its going to resonate with; you never know until you start submitting your work. The film world is the same way; 'Citizen Kane' is hailed as the best film ever made; is it as popular as the average Jerry Lewis film shot during the same period? No. Is it a greater artistic achievement than anything Lewis ever made? Yes. Are there people who prefer a Jerry Lewis film, to an Orson Welles film? Yes. Its all about personal choice.

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  • Rookie - 759 Points Poetry Snob (aka Jefferson Carter) (8/10/2005 9:14:00 PM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

    Oh God! I just stole a dog joke (I remember seeing it but not where) and used it as the heart of my new poem about my dog! Keeping in mind PHounds, Sherries, Michaels, and Lamonts suggestions about my other poems, Ive tried to lengthen 'Thunder' and cut out the burlesque. Also I used Jefferson Carters 'Lightning' poem as a kind of model. How much of this is stealing? If Im going to be arrested by the poetry police for theft, oh, well, what the hell. Ive posted this baby! Come and get me copper! ! P-Snob

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    • Matthew Pearson (8/11/2005 8:49:00 AM) Post reply | Read 3 replies

      No disrepect intended but I have read several of these forum pages and, furthermore, I have read some of the poems mentioned. Mr. Carter is an awful writer, quite frankly. Why not just copy the type o ... more

  • Rookie - 759 Points Michael Philips (8/10/2005 5:42:00 PM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

    Michael, when you started posting your 'found poems, ' at first I thought they were little notes and things that you had found and by typing them up you made them 'poems.' But in fact I think you composed them in a style AS IF they had been found. This is actually more intriguing to me than if you had simply posted some actual text you found. This 'dishonest honesty' has roots in the art world too, for example the photographs of Jeff Wall, who sets up elaborate scenes and then photographs them as if he had chanced upon them.

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  • Rookie - 759 Points Michael Shepherd (8/10/2005 5:20:00 PM) Post reply | Read 1 reply

    ...and if we're going further into the very approximate history of the 'found object' there was a craze in the 18th century for collecting the bizarre in what in French would have been called something like 'cabinets des curiosites'?

    In the 1950s I achieved a passing local fame for having invented a 'poetry machine' (of course it could be done much interestingly now with computing) which made random 'surreal' sentences out of a selection of words. (A format not unlike that which is used by a certain gentleman here...) That was towards the concept of 'found poetry'. Surrealist fascination with dreams is a nother related aspect of this.
    Do you get the feeling you're being over-informed? ...

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    • t. h. ashbury (8/10/2005 5:28:00 PM) Post reply

      no, there is something appropriately surrealist and dada in the exposition. its all good. salut.

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