Poetics and Poetry Discussion
(5/24/2005 12:45:00 PM)
Anyone have Italian out there? When a plural noun like 'three lines' becomes a singular noun - 'three-liner', does it go from 'treline'(feminine) to 'trelina'? I'd like to know before the naming-party!
(5/24/2005 6:40:00 AM)
Though I think there is still a place for one form of part-Japanese 'haiku' that has two statements in two lines whose connection the reader must recognise - e.g. 'mayfly/plop' - and one of those intimating the season adds imagery - we could well go along with Kerouac (who probably got it from Alan Watts who read Japanese) with the three-liner. In memory of Kerouac's suggestion that it be graceful in Italianate style, I suggest 'treline' (trey-lee-nay please..) as a good name for it...
(5/23/2005 4:29:00 PM)
I made a posting on the form of haikus and senryus a minute ago, if anyone wants to check it out: -)
Allan James Saywell
(5/23/2005 3:53:00 PM)
do you realy hate jews erwin
(5/23/2005 3:41:00 PM)
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I attended a workshop years ago given by Japanese poet (translated as he spoke no English.) His definition of haiku was 'a nature poem written in three lines with five syllables in the first and third and seven in the second...but written BY A JAPANESE.' It made me laugh and I never forgot it...but I also felt suspicious of any haiku written by a Western poet.
(5/23/2005 3:15:00 PM)
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This is the most famous haiku ever to have been written in English, by Ezra Pound:
In a Station of the Metro
The apparition of these faces in the crowd;
Petals on a wet, black bough.
I've been doing some research on Japanese forms. I'd thought I'd share this with everybody because I have always got it wrong through nothing more than ignorance. A HAIKU is commonly 5-7-5 (syllables) over three lines. Traditional haikus are nature poems and often contain a word like 'moon', 'wind' etc. The most important thing about a HAIKU is the message (often fairly universal, like a Buddhist prayer) not a strict syllable count, it turns out. Thus, a two-line HAIKU is acceptable if it conveys all it can convey. This is perplexing in the case of Pound, I would concur. However, what a lot of us have confused is a HAIKU (a nature poem or spiritual poem, in essence) with a Japanese SENRYU which IS 5-7-5 and is open to any subject matter...politics, humour, trivia...the development of the HAIKU into a 5-7-5 formation is a century old adaptation; for most of it's history, the HAIKU was a one-line affair. I have been writing SENRYU's (5-7-5) and been thinking they were HAIKU's and a lot of others at 'Poemhunters' have been doing the same. I thought it was an appropriate time to share my findings with others...I really can't decipher how Pound's piece constitutes a Haiku, however. Syllables are entirely out of the window...it must be the reversal of perception in the second line...'faces' becoming 'petals' and 'the crowd' becoming a 'wet black bough'...which is a matter of exchanging common 'labels' for poetic metaphor...very interesting, either way.Replies for this message:
kenneth william snow
(5/23/2005 7:32:00 PM)
Andrew, I agree with PoHo, people are conditioned to look at a three line poem and call it haiku, in fact Jack Kerouac helped define the American haiku as a simple three line poem, Kerouac writes ... more
(5/23/2005 5:49:00 PM)
Thanks for this, Andrew. It's quite interesting, although I think it's too late to change the popular definition of Haiku. I think we're stuck with it even if it's technically inaccurate.
- kenneth william snow (5/23/2005 7:32:00 PM) Post reply
P.O.P. Erwin Baxter
(5/23/2005 11:22:00 AM)
To falsely accuse one of anti-semitism is the act of a low low animal. You're so classless Saywell you almost make ME look classy
ho ho ho
John William Hall
(5/23/2005 4:00:00 AM)
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Would it be possible to establish a seperate forum, like a chat room for those who must not only air their dirty laundry in public but who also need to prove how clever they can be with words (they are not) .
I thought we could all try to incorporate these things into our poems.
Please, all of you, could we possibly follow the advice of Mr. Chris Higginson and stop all personal attacks? I have only been here a short while but it is not enjoyable to see this warfare.
I do not claim to be a particularly clever poet but my two poems were not even welcomed with basic courtesy. Could we have some maturity?
There are so many great poems to enjoy on this website, why don't we concentrate on those and forget the anymosity.
How about it? And please don't come back saying: 'He started it.....'.
kenneth william snow
(5/23/2005 3:47:00 AM)
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If I may interrupt the Erwin Allan show for a moment: Is it right for this website to post the following excerpt from William Carlos Williams 'Spring and All' and leave the uninformed reader with the impression that this is the poem in its entirety? Just wondering.
Spring and All
By the road to the contagious hospital
under the surge of the blue
mottled clouds driven from the
northeast - a cold wind. Beyond, the
waste of broad, muddy fields
brown with dried weeds, standing and fallen
patches of standing water
the scattering of tall trees
All along the road the reddish
purplish, forked, upstanding, twiggy
stuff of bushes and small trees
with dead, brown leaves under them
leafless vines -
Lifeless in appearance, sluggish
dazed spring approaches -
They enter the new world naked,
cold, uncertain of all
save that they enter. All about them
the cold, familiar wind -
Now the grass, tomorrow
the stiff curl of wildcarrot leaf
One by one objects are defined -
It quickens: clarity, outline of leaf
But now the stark dignity of
entrance - Still, the profound change
has come upon them: rooted they
grip down and begin to awaken
William Carlos Williams
(5/23/2005 3:24:00 AM)
somebody been insulting my ancestors, i'll rip his english nuts out
god he'll think he's charly nundah, he's a terrible poet real gutter material
you english deport him to australia give the little cherry a game of leauge
he'll put some value on his nuts then